VENGEANCE Revisited: A 2013 Interview

Today we have black metal and death metal and all kinds of metal imagery guaranteed to scare the wits out of your parents, but Vengeance Rising will always stand out in my mind as the first Christian band whose t-shirts were so scary that my mom burned two of mine, because she was convinced they must be evil. Ha, ha! Mothers. Grisly album covers withstanding, Vengeance Rising was one of the most pivotal bands in Christian metal history. There's a lot of controversy attached to the band name even now, due to the changing beliefs and antics of lead singer Roger Martinez, but none can deny the impact that VR's albums and ministry had in their day. Human Sacrifice was released 25 years ago, and Roxx Records is set to celebrate the anniversary by rereleasing the album on a limited run picture disc. To honor this milestone, and promote the new vinyl, I decided to revisit the glory days gone by with former Vengeance Rising/ Once Dead bassist Roger Dale Martin. Chris Gatto: Three years ago when the Heaven's Metal karew was coming up with our Top 100 Christian Metal Albums of All Time for our 25th anniversary issue, we picked Human Sacrifice for the #1 slot. That album still stands as a real game changer even today. First of all, when you guys were recording Human Sacrifice, did you have any sense of the impact this album would have (and still has)? Roger Dale Martin: I knew that the album would have a big impact, because the band was having a big impact already. Our first show had everyone talking about whether we had gone "too far". Even Pastor Bob was a little uncomfortable with us being so extreme. Our demo tape was in huge demand and we were constantly making copies to hand out. When we were recording the album, Sanctuary had just started to embrace us and provided mass support in the form of follow up, Sanctuary Hot line, prayer sessions before gigs and the list goes on and on. Plus secular bands liked us. They hated most white metal acts. What I've always heard was that Pastor Bob Beeman came up with the idea of starting a band as a missionary effort to reach some of the kids into really heavy music and that Vengeance was birthed out of that idea. When did that all start, and with what lineup? I know Glenn Rogers was on lead guitars before Larry joined.

RDM: When I was playing in the group "Emerald", I attended a seminar by none other than Roger Martinez. "Great Speaker", I thought. We stayed in contact and about 3 months later, he was asking me about starting a super heavy speed metal style of band. I was not interested at the time and told him so. This was around 84 or 85. I finished my stint in Emerald and played a few gigs with Holy Right during their Inland Empire heyday. Fast forward a couple of years and I am totally immersed in Sanctuary and was serving as a deacon at the time. Pastor Bob was counseling Steve Bertram and saw a huge need for a band of our nature to serve and share Jesus. He talked with Doug and I about it. We agreed and started putting together a band. The first lineup was Doug Thieme on guitar, Me on Bass, Steve Bertram on drums, and Glenn Rogers on vocals and guitar. We rehearse about 3 times. No gigs, no nothing. We breakup with me and Doug remaining. Doug and I kept at it. The next lineup was Neon Cross drummer, with an older than us, business woman on vocals. 2 rehearsals at the most. Sharon kept telling me and Doug: "Listen to the Minutemen". So that band influenced some of the shorter songs that we wrote for the first album. One night Doug says to me, " We have got to go see my friend Larry play with Deliverance." So we go see him play. Deliverance was a heavy metal band but Larry was getting into the faster stuff like Metallica and wanted to go in a more hardcore direction than Deliverance was at during that time period. Doug and I set up a rehearsal with Larry and Glen (worship team drummer) and we had a great great first rehearsal. Larry was perfect and had more of a thrash education than Doug and I. We all loved Glen and He actually enjoyed it himself. a few weeks later, enter Roger Martinez. Band complete!!

I didn't realize you played in Emerald too. I remember them and Holy Right.

I've also heard a couple times in interviews Glen make the comment that he wasn't real into the music, but stayed b/c he saw the impact VR was having with kids. As a metalhead that's hard for me to understand. Did you guys all feel like that? Like you were targeting a specific group of heavy metal fans, or was this just the music you wanted to play?

RDM: I definitely felt that way. The music was very foreign to me. The rhythms were so bizarre. The speed made my head spin. I was definitely targeting a specific audience. But once that I understood the music and what it was all about, I fell head over heels with it. I spent hours practicing and practicing . Non-stop. I chose to use a pick so I could play 32nd notes and even 64th notes from time to time. The music raised my testosterone level and I loved it. The running joke used to be that Christian metal was always 5 years behind its secular peers back in those days. The number of exceptions to that could probably be counted on one hand- bands like Tourniquet, and of course Vengeance were cutting edge across the board. I've never been sure what to call your style of music- thrash, sure, but then Doug's playing these speed metal riffs, while Larry's playing the most smoking blues solos, and Roger M.'s over the top vocals were far beyond what Brian Johnson (AC/DC) or Udo Dirkschneider (Accept) had done. What music was influencing you guys, or was it a mix of your influences that created the Vengeance sound?

RDM: It was a mix of influences. But the best part of it all was that we studied the FRESH stuff. I loved S.O.D. and was very influenced by the vibe. Venom , Slayer, Metallica. and whoever else was happening. We had no background of years and years of punk rock or whatever. Martinez vocals were more current and fresh than anything. We didn't clone anyone or even try to learn any of the songs by these bands. I just listened. We knew what made it click. Attitude, Aggression, Angst, whatever.. And we were plenty young enough to pull it off. At the time, Christian heavy metal was becoming a formula. When I first met Doug, he refused to spike his hair or even get a layered shag haircut. He was going for the Ian Gillan , Mark Farner, etc. Apache cut. Every hair on his head growing down to his waist. I followed suit. And Larry was growing his cutesy putesy Holy Soldier cut into a complete dirt head look. We were sick of jeans with holes and bright colored bandanas. BEFORE it had gone out of style. We wanted waist length hair. Black on black and decent jeans. Comfortable, Manly. Pop metal didn't last, and while classic/ power metal will always have its cult status, extreme metal is what has blossomed and grown in the past 20 years. At least in the CCM marketplace, it could be argued that VR was the forefather of all these black/death/grind bands that proliferate today. Do any of you guys get into the newer extreme metal bands, or what kind of music do you listen to today?

RDM: I don't listen to any of the new metal. My son turned me on to "Trapped Under Ice" a few years ago. I thought they were good. All that I listen to now is contemporary Christian (Hillsong United, Lincoln Brewster, etc.) basically for musical education. ( I am currently on the worship team at church} But I still listen to Yngwie's first solo album "Rising Force" every day. I have for years and I still can't get over it. I still learn things new off that album every day. I also watch Yngwie with the Japanese Philharmonic Orchestra. Killer. I am still getting an education every time I watch that. Mind boggling for me. Teaches me so much. And music appreciation.

I like Yngwie, too, but I went to see him live one time, and found him so arrogant and obnoxious that I don't think I've ever listened to his music again (lol).

Remembering Vengeance is always kind of bittersweet b/c of singer Roger M. walking away from his faith. I feel that whole situation is well documented already, so I don't feel obligated to delve into those kind of questions, but we could fill a book about all the Christian metal musicians that have fallen away. Sadly I had friends in Bible college that ended up leaving their faith whiling studying for the ministry as well. To what extent are we our brother's keeper? How much influence do we have with our Christian brothers and sisters?

RDM: Everybody makes a choice. We have a great influence on the body of Christ.. But still people go through phases and changes as they journey through life. I want Jesus with me at all times. He keeps his promise.

I met Glenn Rogers once when he played with Hirax and when talking about his time with Vengeance and Deliverance, Glenn mentioned that the pressure was high because here you were just kids yet, but were expected to be like missionaries or theologians, and have all the answers. Does the Church put too much pressure on its heroes and leaders, whether they're musicians or even pastors, and thus set them up to fail?

RDM: They put a TON of pressure on you for sure. But not to set you up for failure. We do that naturally without any help at all. I never felt the pressure nor was I influenced by that mindset. I was clocked in. I wanted it. Is that whole situation what changed Sanctuary from having physical churches with pastors to being a one- man traveling church? I've always wanted to be a part of a metal congregation. Worshiping God in your style/language with your own peers would be an awesome experience. Other countries have them, maybe it's just not meant to be in the US. RDM: Had nothing to do with Pastor Bob leaving Sanctuary. He was called to do something else. It happens to people all the time.

Something else I always wanted to ask about. A friend of mine, Dorn Reppert (Image Records), once showed me some hilarious video footage of VR performing an unannounced show at Cornerstone as the Flowers of Power. Can you tell me about that?

Glen Mancaruso, who has been silent up to this point, adds: Ha, ha yes , I forgot who came up with the idea but we dressed up in our best 60's hippie garb and took the stage as Flowers of Power.

And Cornerstone attendees got the surprise of their lives when the hippie band started tearing it up and they realized it was really Vengeance Rising in disguise!

RDM: At the time, Cornerstone only allowed bands to play 2 consecutive years. We had done our 2 and wanted to play again the 3rd year. So we invented Flowers of Power.

Ha, ha. What year was that?

RDM: I don't remember. 90 or 91.

After VR, the 4 of you went on to play as Die Happy with Robyn Kyle Basauri on vocals. Aside from the blues influence, the style was very different. Why the musical change? RDM: I felt that Die Happy was an extension of Doug Thieme's writing and ability. He had a lot of subjects and rhythms inside.

Die Happy played 2 albums and a live ep. Roger, I believe you only played on the first album. What led to Die Happy winding down? What have you guys been doing with yourselves since then- I know some of you stayed in music and others haven't?

RDM: After Vengeance, I was still very ministry minded and wanted to continue a hardcore approach. I started playing 6 string in a biker ministry band called Triple Ace. We played biker runs and went into prisons to preach. Mainly worked with Bikers for Christ and Christ's Motor Club. At the same time, Doug was working with Frontline on his own personal record deal and began writing songs for the first Die Happy LP. He asked me to play bass on the album and actually paid me very well to do the recording. I gave 100% to learning and recording the songs, but that was about it for me in Die Happy. I moved to Nashville in 1994 and started my own ministry band called Pond Scum. We played local coffee shops and Cornerstone festival a couple of times but that was about it. I found my new love for ministry in the local churches in Nashville. Playing 6 string on worship teams in Nashville was extremely challenging to me in the beginning. I was handed chord charts and told to be ready for Sunday service! I have been playing on worship teams at several churches here in town. Calvary Chapel, Cornerstone, First Baptist church of Smyrna, Longhollow Baptist Church and currently playing at the Community of Hope in Clarksville. I love it. It is a perfect win-win situation.

What led to the Once Dead reunion show back in 2004?

RDM: Internet fans started that show. Scott Waters had a lot to do with it too. Also Bill Roxx.

That one-off show led to Once Dead as a band, but in the 4 or 5 years it took to produce new music, everybody left except Doug, with Larry and Glen Rogers coming and going. What happened?

RDM: I wanted to see the response of the first show and see if God was in it for me. I personally did not see a future in it for me, or God saying, "Roger, do this again." The guys would have helped me to do it, no problem, but my heart was not into it.

What did you think of the cd Visions of Hell that was ultimately released? Does it fit the VR canon, or was it another band entirely?

RDM: No disrespect, but I have never listened to it.

Here we are, 25 years after the first release, celebrating the picture disc release on vinyl. What are some of the best memories of Vengeance? Are there any future memories left to be made?

RDM: My special moments were a double billed show featuring us and Deliverance. There were so many people that we had to do 2 shows that night for everyone to experience it. We flipped a coin and Vengeance was chosen to open the show. Complete pandemonium when we walked onstage. I have never felt so much love and peace and the favor of God. We killed it that night and blew the roof off of that place! Another great moment was playing Cornerstone with the Crucified. We were great friends with those guys and they would stay with us when they were in SoCal doing gigs and such. But the day at Cornerstone was magic. VR and the Crucified were united in Christ and we all felt the electricity and the love of the most wonderful music fans on the planet. We were pumped and so on fire! Another big moment for me was when we played a show in south LA with about 4 deeply Satanic bands. We did not have our usual support from fans or prayer groups that night. I felt the oppression so bad that it almost made me puke. We pulled it off. But God carried us. We did 2 US tours. And we had so much fun and felt so much love from people. We had fart wars. Peed on flat tires. Beat the wink donkus out of our equipment trailer. Slept on the floor. Slept in the van. And not once ever got a haircut!!! We freaked people out. Calmed some down. And listened to Muddy Waters and Blind Willie Bobo and U2. Is there a future for Vengeance? We will see, won't we???!!!!! Thanks again, Roger D., for reliving the VR days with me. And thanks to Glen Mancaruso, Doug Thieme, Larry Farkas, Roger Martinez, Glen Rogers, Bob Beeman, Bill Bafford, and everyone else involved in the heritage and ministry of Vengeance. Thanks for the mind blowing music! The band meant so much to me growing up. Much love from Heaven's Metal and HM magazines. Blessings on all of you. - Chris Gatto